Cita de: Artschool en Octubre 04, 2017, 04:47:04 PM
(Please do not take the following comments personally. It's a general opinion on what the KS trend is)

Fair enough, but the average delay for KS projects is close to absurd.  There have been enough KS boardgame projects so that creators can more accurately set their fulfillment dates. Oh, but it sells better to set an unrealistic date and then delay things once all the monies have been collected. This would just not happen in any other serious business where creators/manufacturers may be held liable for substantial defaults. I am not implying that this should happen on KS too. Just saying that more accurate terms is what we need. Take KD:M as an example: Adam Poots knows that he will sell his game even if he states that fulfillment might not be 100% completed until 2020 and beyond. That's better than bearing a 3-year unexpected delay (which in KD:M's case might well even take place too!).

It is also upsetting to find the same games available way cheaper on your FLGS even before than backers have received their copies.

Another example: I have waited 6 months for some replacement parts for a game I backed. I paid for shipping, and some premium $$ for some minor KS exclusives because I wanted to support an indie project. Then, before production, we learnt that the game was to be distributed by one of the majors (=thus the end to the "indie" label). MY KS copy (and many others')  came with several flaws so at the end of the day I have paid 2 years in advance for a flawed game which was available in shops cheaper and many months before I received my replacement parts.

Besides, my general feeling is that KS is flooded with mediocre projects (and it becomes harder and harder to tell the real good ones from the rest), that prices are inflated in general terms, that delays are just unnaceptable and that there is an increasingly backer community which is becoming fed up of being mistreated, that creators seem to ask for more and more and give less in return which is an apparent contradiction in an increasingly competitive environment such as the boardgaming market is. I have personally limited my KS interest to a very few projects which I deem really worth backing. If the KS platform allowed for a more backer-friendly interaction in terms of quality, prices, fulfillment terms, reliable info to backers, risk management, etc. I would be happy to back many more projects. But atm the balance isn't just there, so I am too quitting from most of the KS campaigns which seem interesting at first glance. Sorry to say.

I completely get your point, and yes it is hard to distinguish good from mediocre I can see this trend on KS of late but I will always support someone who is more indie and passionate about their work than someone who will just churn out their new quarterly "product" to fill in the gaps in their yearly business (but that is just me).

When it comes to delays I think if you are a new company it is nearly impossible to avoid them from happening, there are just too many unknown variables beside the original money estimates (come on who could predict Brexit?), while if you have had 1 or 2 projects under your belt, then it becomes less excusable because you should know by now how these things works (unless you have completely changed your working pipe-line).

My point is, maybe people needs to be a little more forgiving to new kickstarters and take these delays for granted as part of the normal development, so if a game from a new company says it will be out in 6 months, I would add 3-4 months, I am not trying to excuse them or us but if you have participated in an indie KS before it is nothing shockingly new

And slightly off topic, even MASSIVE companies like Bungie, Blizzard and Bioware with millions to spare and hundreds of people to work for them have suffered delays. Game development in all its form it is just too unpredictable to be a perfect science.

When it comes to Dark Ice Games however, I think we have learned our lesson: Finish the base game first, launch a KS then work and release the expansions after the base game has shipped, trying to do all at once will just cause obvious delays.

Cita de: Dark Ice Games en Octubre 04, 2017, 05:04:59 PM
My point is, maybe people needs to be a little more forgiving to new kickstarters and take these delays for granted as part of the normal development, so if a game from a new company says it will be out in 6 months, I would add 3-4 months, I am not trying to excuse them or us but if you have participated in an indie KS before it is nothing shockingly new

THIS. 10000 times. What I find baffling is how people not new to the intrincancies of KS still get surprise and/or angry when their game is delayed.

Cita de: Artschool en Octubre 04, 2017, 04:47:04 PMBesides, my general feeling is that KS is flooded with mediocre projects (and it becomes harder and harder to tell the real good ones from the rest)

Sturgeon's Law is your friend.

Cita de: Dark Ice Games en Octubre 04, 2017, 04:01:39 PM
But the point of Kickstarter is to help people realize projects, if everybody would think like this, the boardgaming community would be dead.

I believe it is thanks to the trust of backers placed in kickstarter projects like ours that we have seen a return to boardgames, we need help on KS (at least for small indie developers) or in the future you'll have to buy them only from Games Workshop, Fantasy Flight and CMON.

Completely agree here, best games of the year, Gloomhaven and The 7th Continent, are KS projects from indie companies and have delays, put in their shoes, they are their first projects. For sure Darklight will became next year jewell.

Cita de: Manchi en Octubre 04, 2017, 05:22:40 PM
THIS. 10000 times. What I find baffling is how people not new to the intrincancies of KS still get surprise and/or angry when their game is delayed.

Sturgeon's Law is your friend.

I am neither surprised nor angry, my friend. I am just disappointed because severe delays and misinformation to lure backers have become the standard practice and I find that unacceptable for any business model that intends to qualify as serious. We all know what we are in when we back a project, but  to know does not mean to accept. We bear with it because it's that or nothing. Thus I am limiting myself to projects which I really want to have and which I cannot get from retail at a similar price and/or with a similar content later on.

Thanks for the Sturgeon's law reference, but my point there is that many of us just don't have the time or are just not in the mood to invest into investigating the myridad of "cool looking-shitty at heart" projects that plague KS these days. The easy way: just go for what you are 10000% sure that is worth it. That means we will just miss some good indie projects, but that's the side effect I guess.

Finally, a 3-4 months' delay might be reasonable in some circumstances. A year or two are way harder to buy.

Cita de: Dark Ice Games en Octubre 04, 2017, 05:04:59 PM
I completely get your point, and yes it is hard to distinguish good from mediocre I can see this trend on KS of late but I will always support someone who is more indie and passionate about their work than someone who will just churn out their new quarterly "product" to fill in the gaps in their yearly business (but that is just me).

When it comes to delays I think if you are a new company it is nearly impossible to avoid them from happening, there are just too many unknown variables beside the original money estimates (come on who could predict Brexit?), while if you have had 1 or 2 projects under your belt, then it becomes less excusable because you should know by now how these things works (unless you have completely changed your working pipe-line).

My point is, maybe people needs to be a little more forgiving to new kickstarters and take these delays for granted as part of the normal development, so if a game from a new company says it will be out in 6 months, I would add 3-4 months, I am not trying to excuse them or us but if you have participated in an indie KS before it is nothing shockingly new

And slightly off topic, even MASSIVE companies like Bungie, Blizzard and Bioware with millions to spare and hundreds of people to work for them have suffered delays. Game development in all its form it is just too unpredictable to be a perfect science.

When it comes to Dark Ice Games however, I think we have learned our lesson: Finish the base game first, launch a KS then work and release the expansions after the base game has shipped, trying to do all at once will just cause obvious delays.

True. This brings the debate of whether KS is the right tool for "preorders" ala CMON or should it be kept as a real way for independent creators to raise funds. It's too long a discussion for this thread

I can fully understand and 100000% forgive newcomers to the industry. But I honestly cannot understand creators who launch a campaign without having done even the most basic homework beforehand. The hardest thing of creating/selling/manufacturing/distributing a game worldwide has nothing to do with creativity or passion: it has to do with business planning, numbers, fulfillment, contracts, import-export, customs, tax, logistics, manufacturing, QA and all that boring jazz. And that is something that somehow many KS campaings still ignore and then bring out as "suprises" once the deal is done. Shocking (again, not referring to DIG!!!).

Massive companies manage their terms and cashflow to lure backers and then profit from that extra 6 months which we all knew that they would keep our money for free. That's why I have just backed a project from them and it will probably be my last. I am much more inclined to support Adam Poots (well he is becoming big now), Isaac Childres (grown fast too) or the 7th continent guys, just to name a few. I am not prone to toss my money to CMON any more (MDarkness was my only time and I am not very happy with it tbh - it's an unfinished/untested/unbalanced game and I expected MUCH more from someone like them).

As far as Dark Ice Games is concerned, DL:MM was the very first KS project I became interested in when I discovered crowdfunding back in 2015. I followed the campaign very passionately but ended up bailing out 30 minutes before the campaign ended. You have more or less pointed out the main reason: I felt there was a substantial degree of development yet to be done (especially the out-of-the-dungeon part, of which I asked Mauro thoroughly -and he kindly replied to my queries but he couldn't tell me what I guess didn't exist by then -) and since I would have been my first KS, I was unsure of whether to invest some money on a project which I felt needed more to be finished. All in all you are 100% right when you say that it's preferable to have the games completed beforehand. A campaign is hard enough to manage as it is, so the more you have done before launching it, the better.

Anyway, thanks a lot for your insight. It's been very interesting. Looking forward to hearing from DL:MM going gold and from any new project you might be working on soon!

Cita de: Artschool en Octubre 05, 2017, 10:36:45 AM
I am neither surprised nor angry, my friend.

Missing the part where I say you were, mon ami 

CitarThanks for the Sturgeon's law reference, but my point there is that many of us just don't have the time or are just not in the mood to invest into investigating the myridad of "cool looking-shitty at heart" projects that plague KS these days.

Easy peasy, if you don't have/are not willing to put the time just don't use KS. Are there really THAT MANY KS that interest you? You can't spend a few minutes checking if it is the creators' first project or how it went with their prior KS to have an idea which way it will probably go with their newest adventure? Then, don't use KS. And even if you do your homework, investing in a KS project it's always a gamble. If you are not willing to risk your "hard earned money", then don't use KS. You will save yourself a lot of pain.

PD: I mean "you" as in "you people", plural, not you specifically 

¿Alguien puede hacer un resumen, por favor?

.

Cita de: Manchi en Octubre 05, 2017, 11:17:03 AM
Missing the part where I say you were, mon ami 

Easy peasy, if you don't have/are not willing to put the time just don't use KS. Are there really THAT MANY KS that interest you? You can't spend a few minutes checking if it is the creators' first project or how it went with their prior KS to have an idea which way it will probably go with their newest adventure? Then, don't use KS. And even if you do your homework, investing in a KS project it's always a gamble. If you are not willing to risk your "hard earned money", then don't use KS. You will save yourself a lot of pain.

PD: I mean "you" as in "you people", plural, not you specifically 

Just in case you included me in the "people not new to the intricacies of KS" group

And you are right, that's precisely why I have almost quitted KS for good, and many other people I know of too. But it's a pity that the "if you don't like it, don't use it" argument is the best we can get these days. There are risks which I find reasonable, but others just don't add for me. I believe that things could be done better than "take it or leave it", but to each their own. Have a good day and see you on the KD:M side hehe.

Cita de: Artschool en Octubre 05, 2017, 11:31:08 AM
Just in case you included me in the "people not new to the intricacies of KS" group

And you are right, that's precisely why I have almost quitted KS for good, and many other people I know of too. But it's a pity that the "if you don't like it, don't use it" argument is the best we can get these days. There are risks which I find reasonable, but others just don't add for me. I believe that things could be done better than "take it or leave it", but to each their own. Have a good day and see you on the KD:M side hehe.

Well, as many other things in life "it is what it is"    KS is not for everybody. I don't like reggaeton, for example, but I don't try to change it into something different just so that I can like it. I accept it's not for me and move on 

PD: I know, I know. The analogy is flawed, but I couldn't resist it xDD

Por favor, entiendo que habléis en inglés con Mauro, pero intentad resumir la conversación en castellano para aquellos que no pueden seguir el hilo.

@funkyboy tu mensaje no ha sido borrado sino traducido con toda la buena fe del mundo por un castellano parlante.

Vamos a rebajar la tension tod@s y no entrar en discusiones bizantinas.

En caso de querer seguir discutiendo, os animo a leer primero la Ley 39/2015.

Edito mi mensaje.

Para los que no entendeis ingles, solo estan hablando de Kickstarter en si y de compañias indies, bla bla, etc etc. Nada referente al proyecto DLMM ni a actualizaciones de este 

To Mauro: We've been asked to write in castillian or at least to translate whenever we speak to you. What you see right after these lines is just that: a summary of what we have spoken so far these last couple of days for the benefit of non-english speakers.

Para Mauro: Nos han pedido que escribamos en castellano o que al menos traduzcamos cuando hablemos contigo. Lo que ves justo tras estas lineas es solo eso: un resumen de lo que hemos hablado este último par de días para el beneficio de los que no hablan inglés.

Cita de: kadaroth en Octubre 05, 2017, 01:39:17 PM
Para los que no entendeis ingles, solo estan hablando de Kickstarter en si y de compañias indies, bla bla, etc etc. Nada referente al proyecto DLMM ni a actualizaciones de este 

Correcto. Todo ha empezado a raíz del comentario de que los retrasos constantes en KS han hecho que un usuario deje de participar en ellos, a lo que Mauro ha respondido que son parte de KS y que este sirve para ayudar a la gente a lanzar sus proyectos y conseguir que se hagan realidad. A partir de aquí ha venido una discusión sobre si los retrasos son o no aceptables, si lo son hasta que punto, los motivos que pueden llevar a ellos, que es difícil distinguir buenos proyectos de malos y opiniones sobre si hay un tipo de gente que debería dejar de meterse como mecenas en KS.

Pido disculpas si he molestado a alguien por comunicarme con Mauro en inglés dado que no habla español. He dado por supuesto que la gente interesada y metida en el proyecto se defiende con el inglés, al contrario que Mauro, que supongo que tira del google traductor para entender el español, con lo que no hacía falta que tradujese nada, pero después de leer un par de comentarios eliminados veo que no es así, con lo que pido disculpas y a partir de ahora añadiré al menos un pequeño resumen de cada aportación mía a este hilo que realice en la lengua de Shakesperare.

Lo mismo digo. He contestado en el idioma en el que se hablaba porque está claro que si DIG replica en inglés es porque no puede hacerlo en castellano, pero mis disculpas si alguien se ha sentido molesto.

Y @Manchi, la analogía del "reguetón" es bastante flojilla  , empezando porque a todos nos gustan los juegos de mesa y por lo tanto podemos perfectamente tener interés en que KS mejore como plataforma de financiación colectiva de este tipo de productos -especialmente desde el punto de vista de los mecenas, que es lo que mayoritariamente somos en estos foros. Si no me importara un pepino, no es que no habría sugerido que cambien y mejoren algunas cosas, es que ni sabría que existe.

Cita de: Artschool en Octubre 05, 2017, 02:41:49 PM
Y @Manchi, la analogía del "reguetón" es bastante flojilla  ,

I know xDD Lo se xDD

Citarempezando porque a todos nos gustan los juegos de mesa

A todos nos gusta la música también xDD

Everybody likes music, too.